Cardinal Kasper: Francis’ visit to Sweden “an important step in this common Walk to Unity”

Nov 08, 2016

Pope Francis’ visit to Sweden to participate in the commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformationon Oct 31 is “very important” for ecumenism, and could pave the way for a new document on Church, Eucharist and ministry, according to Cardinal Walter Kasper.

In this interview with GERARD O’CONNELL, the cardinal, who was President of the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity from 2001-2010, looks back on the progress made in the Catholic- Lutheran dialogue over the past 50 years, but look forward to new horizons for that dialogue. Moreover, he emphasises that “doctrinal questions are not the only important thing for ecumenism, it is also important that you make ecumenism through friendship, through trust” and said, “this is the charism of Francis.”

Pope Francis’ visit to Sweden to participate in the commemoration of the 500th anniversary of the Reformation on Oct. 31 is “very important” for ecumenism, and could pave the way for a new document on church, Eucharist and ministry, according to Cardinal Walter Kasper.

The German cardinal understands the significance of this better than most because he served as co-chairperson of the international Catholic-Lutheran Commission that in 1999 reached agreement on the question of justification that was at the heart of the dispute that led to the Protestant Reformation.

In this interview with America on the eve of Francis’ visit, the cardinal, who was President of the Pontifical Council for the Promotion of Christian Unity from 2001-2010, not only looks back on the progress made in the Catholic-Lutheran dialogue over the past 50 years, but also forward to new horizons for that dialogue. Moreover, he emphasizes that “doctrinal questions are not the only important thing for ecumenism, it is also important that you make ecumenism through friendship, through trust” and said, “this is the charism of Francis.”

What’s the significance of Pope Francis going to Lund, Sweden, to participate in the commemoration of the 500^th anniversary of the Protestant Reformation?
Well the Lutheran World Federation (L.W.F.) was the first one with whom we started the dialogue after the Second Vatican Council. The dialogue with the Lutherans, in my view, is the most advanced dialogue that we have. The first major consequence of that was the agreement on the question of justification, and now I think the time is mature to have a similar paper about church, Eucharist, and ministry. The dialogue on these three points is very far advanced, though there is not yet full consensus. A commission from the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops that is responsible for interreligious and ecumenical affairs has prepared all the materials about these three themes and about the achievements so far and I think that now we should make a common statement about these. If we do so, it could open the door, at least, for Holy Communion in singular, concrete situations. 

Could you explain the question of justification that once created so many problems, but is now resolved?
The problem of justification was at the center of the whole dispute in the 16^th century. Luther believed that there was only justification by faith, not by good-works, justification only by grace and not by our merits. Of course, we now agree that good-works are fruits of faith but we cannot merit grace, it’s given only by the love of God. At the time of the Reformation there was a sharp division about this point. The occasion was indulgences. Then a friar called Johann Tetzel, O.P., preached indulgences, and one got indulgences by giving money. There was a whole market of indulgences at that time and this was an abuse. Luther argued against indulgences in his 95 theses; he said one cannot merit grace, it is a gift of God by faith, and this created a discussion about the power of the pope to give indulgences. So, the question of papacy was immediately implied in this discussion; the pope was seen as the anti-Christ, teaching doctrines not founded in scripture, whereas Luther insisted on “scripture alone.”

The question of indulgences, however, was only the starting point of a big dispute. There were also many political problems involved, and so the Reformation then became a reformation made by the princes who had not only their holy interests, but also their worldly interests – practical, economic, political. And then there were many abuses in the church in the late Middle Ages and people were very angry against Rome because of the indulgences. Money is the most sensitive point of the human being! So there was a lot of anger against Rome, the Curia, and there was a whole wave of emotions.

You were co-chair of the Catholic-Lutheran International Commission that reached the all-important agreement on the question of justification. Could you explain that agreement and how it happened?
It came about because there were some very good studies on this question in the United States and in Germany, historical studies, and the new change in the research about Luther. Then a good friendship developed among us in the commission, and I think this was important. We walked with each other and shared how we live our respective faiths. All that created an atmosphere of trust in which one can find solutions.

Then we agreed that, first of all, every human being requires justification, one cannot justify oneself. The great heresy of modern times is that we can do it by ourselves. It’s clear, also from psychology, that we all need justification, we are all sinners. Secondly, the fact is that only God can justify and pardon sins, we cannot do it by ourselves; we cannot do it by good works, by asceticism, by mysticism and so on, it is all God’s grace, and it makes us a new creation. We are justified by God alone, and by faith in God’s work in Jesus Christ on the cross and in the resurrection, and not by our own merits. We are justified by the grace of God or—as Pope Francis says—by the mercy of God. But God’s grace must become fruitful in works of charity and in our life. It’s not a cheap faith where we have nothing to do; good works are a fruit of grace, we cannot do them by our own forces. Those are the main points. There are some smaller points regarding different aspects of the fundamental agreement that still need to be clarified, but do not contradict the fundamental agreement.

In October of 1999, John Paul II approved this agreement on one of the central points of the Reformation, and as consequence of that in Germany we also reached agreement on the mutual recognition of baptism.

We have reached this fundamental agreement but we are not yet fully united because there are still problems relating to church, ministry, Eucharist, and papacy.

The Lutherans do not yet accept the papacy.
Well there has been a lot of discussion and dialogue about the papacy. They no longer consider the pope as the anti-Christ. Lutheran bishops come to Rome and like to have a photo with the pope. So, things have changed, but there is still much resistance against the universal jurisdiction of the pope.

To address this question of the papacy, John Paul II, in the encyclical “Ut Unum Sint,” invited all the ecumenical partners to reflect together with him about a new way of exercising the papal ministry. Benedict XVI repeated it. Francis repeats it, but goes further and calls for “a conversion of papacy.” He wants to give more freedom, not autonomy but more responsibility, to bishops and to the local church. From both sides, there is a rapprochement.

In this context, I think the meeting in Lund is very important, because doctrinal questions are not the only important thing for ecumenism. It is also important that you make ecumenism through friendship, through trust, and this is the charism of Francis, to make friendship, to establish personal relations, trustful relations, and I think this can help a lot. Moreover, he does not think in terms of positions, but in the terms of development, of process. For him, ecumenism is to walk together, step by step, and walking together to address the challenges of our days which also brings us closer to each other.

I consider Lund an important step in this common walk to unity. Lund cannot close theological questions, but it can pave the way for a new document about ministry, the Eucharist and church, or at least help us go further. It gives important support for our dialogue, because it builds trust, and without trust we cannot solve any problems. Friendship and trust are fundamental, so this will be a new push for the dialogue and it will make this new closeness transparent to the public. This is a public witness because everyone now sees the pope goes to the Lutherans, and they see the Lutherans with the pope, and this changes the mentalities in the church. 

But I have to add something. The Lund meeting is a relationship with the L.W.F., but in Germany we have a different situation because they are more skeptical, because the Evangelical Church of Germany is not only Lutherans it also includes the Reformed and United churches, there’s a mixture and therefore we have a different situation, more skeptical, more critical, more resistant, so I don’t know if this meeting can help to overcome some of their reservations. One can only overcome these reservations and distrust through the culture of encounter.

I know that in Buenos Aires Francis had very good relations with the Lutherans, and he wants to move forward.  He’s not a specialist of the theological dialogue; rather he emphasizes friendship and walking together. For him ecumenism like synodality means walking together. He believes in the process. Time has precedence over space.

You have written a book on Luther, which I understand you also gave to Pope Francis. How do you see Luther?
In the beginning Luther had good intentions. He did not want to create a new church, he wanted to reform the whole church, he wanted the renewal of the universal church, starting from the bible. Today, we call this the New Evangelization, but then there was all this wave of emotions. Rome’s resistance led to his 95 theses that were no longer in agreement with Catholic teaching, regarding the sacraments, the ministry and so on. He was condemned as an obstinate heretic and outlawed at the Diet of Worms presided over by Emperor Charles V in 1521. Consequently, he was not any longer protected by the law of the Empire, anyone could kill him. Later, around 1530, he began to establish his own communities, and at some point turned back to positions, more on institutional questions, that were not those of the Catholic church.

Luther is a complex personality, there was a complex evolution in him, and in the dialogue with the Lutherans, and especially with the L.W.F., we tried to discuss all these problems and so we are no longer in the position of the sixteenth century. The world has changed, the church has changed, the Lutherans have changed. We have tried to come to an ecumenical interpretation of all this in the dialogue, and now are very close together.--America Magazine